Dr C Thi Nguyen on How to stop playing someone else's game

We like to think we choose what matters. But what if the goals we’re chasing… aren’t actually ours?Episode Summary My guest on this episode is Dr. C. Thi Nguyen, philosopher and author of The Score: How to Stop Playing Somebody Else’s Game, a book about how metrics, scoring systems, and “games” shape our behaviour—often without us realising it. Thi explains how his work on games led him to a deeper question: why do scoring systems make games feel meaningful, but make real life feel distorted? The answer lies in how metrics redefine success—quietly shifting us from what we care about to what we can measure.In a wide-ranging discussion, we explore the idea of “value capture”, why institutions rely on simplified proxies, and how the very features that make metrics useful also make them dangerous. We also discuss expertise, transparency, gamification, and why removing metrics altogether doesn’t solve the problem. This is a conversation about control: who sets the rules, who keeps score, and what happens when we stop questioning the game we’re playing. Guest BioDr. C. Thi Nguyen is a philosopher whose work explores how games, metrics, and social systems shape human behaviour and values. A professor of philosophy at the University of Utah, his research sits at the intersection of ethics, decision-making, and the philosophy of agency, with a particular focus on how the structures around us influence what we care about and how we act.Alongside his academic work, Thi is also a keen gamer, rock climber, and cook; interests that inform his thinking about play, challenge, and the richness of human experience beyond what can be easily measured.AI-Generated Timestamped Summary 00:00 – Introduction: games, metrics, and meaning03:00 – How Thi came to study games and philosophy07:00 – What games are (and why they matter)10:00 – Achievement vs striving play13:00 – Cheating and misunderstanding the point of games16:00 – Games, struggle, and meaningful activity18:00 – Cooking, recipes, and rules22:00 – Metrics as simplified rule systems25:00 – Value capture and how metrics reshape goals29:00 – Why institutions rely on measurement32:00 – Quantification and loss of context36:00 – Rules, algorithms, and expertise40:00 – Standardisation and the cost of consistency43:00 – Transparency, trust, and unintended consequences47:00 – Metrics and the loss of expert judgment50:00 – Ungrading and the limits of removing metrics54:00 – Designing better scoring systems58:00 – Gamification and why it misses the point01:02:00 – Choosing your own game01:06:00 – Final reflections and closingRelevant LinksThi’s personal website – https://objectionable.net/His faculty page - https://profiles.faculty.utah.edu/u6021584The Score: How to Stop Playing Someone Else’s Game - https://www.penguin.co.uk/books/457380/the-score-by-nguyen-c-thi/9780241653975Thi on Bluesky – https://bsky.app/profile/add-hawk.bsky.social